First, this is to the previous comment writer. I am NOT personally upset with the water situation in my unit. Why?? Because in 03 I had individual shut-off valves installed on my hot and cold water supply lines to my shower. That way, when I want hot water, I get it!! It doesn't matter if my water is too hot or too cold (it's been both) because I can adjust it at these valves. It cost a lot of money, but it was well worth it. It's called being PROACTIVE. I'm just trying to use what I know to help my neighbors, including you (believe it or not).
Second of all, to address the big picture, here's some thoughts. The three primary reasons the water is the way it is: first, so many people have modified their plumbing systems (addidng or moving sinks, installing washers and dryers, etc.) that the current plumbing system bears little resemblance to the original, making the hot and cold sides of the system incredibly difficult to balance. Second, there are still many hard-heads who own units here who refuse to change their shower valves or otherwise maintain their plumbing fixtures. Third, the original cause of the problem occurred in 2002 when the City of Fullerton mandated the installation of a Backflow preventer system. That's why when residents called the Health Department, the Health department didn't do anything. The knew full well what the root cause of the problem was.
After a couple of years of getting estimates and listening to suggestions from contractors, the "previous board" arrived at the following conclusions. Replacing the pipes under the buildings is like putting a $300,000 band-aid on a heart attack. All that will do is stop the slab leaks. And unless someone has a better idea, the long-term solution looks to be blocking off all the common piping and running a single cold water main to each unit with a hot water heater, making each owner responsible for their own water situation.
There are many issues with this: running the main under the slab or on the roof, putting the water heaters in each unit or putting them on the roof also. There's also the issue of financing this, which will be very, (did I say very) very expensive. I won't even mention the political issues.
The bottom line is in the short run, Pro-Serv needs to go, and in the long run, the systemic problem has to be addressed. Failure to do so will result in these units becoming more and more difficult to sell. And, sooner or later, we will all want to sell. It's just our bad luck to be owners during this "crisis".
Like I said, if anyone has a better idea or ideas, this seems to be a good place to let them be known. I'm in no rush to solve this problem today. Whether it's Rene or myself or whoever on the board, there very well may be a simple answer to the issue that we all are missing, and it may just require a little patience to find it.
Todd in 122
11 comments:
Um Todd, I think that your comment actually agreed with the previous person: expensive problem, lots of work to fix.
Well we can't sell our place because the water issue alone makes it tough and devalues our home anyways. We are losing money just sitting here and doing nothing. Lets pay the very expensive price and get this job done already, stop being such a tight wad. I tell all new prospect buyers that I see on Sundays and let them know of the water situation and that really tends to turn them off. I wish someone would have told me about the water problems.
Reference to the 3:15 post, all I see is another anonymous, cheap shot against Todd that adds no ideas or insight to the discussion of the water situation. Out of all the people who post on your blog, he seems to be the only one who's actually "been there, done that". If someone had a potentially "stupid" question to ask, they might be afraid to post in fear of a cut-down from eagle-eyed cowards like the 3:15 poster.
Howard, I thought you were going to prevent comments like that.
B.S.S.
BSS
You are right. I probably should have screened that one out but I get a little lazy sometimes.
I also look forward to reading anything that Todd has to say. He is a great neighbor and resource for everyone in Parkridge.
Howard
ps I believe Todd has some pretty thick skin!
Hi Todd,
With regard to installing individual water heaters for each unit, would that require running a gas line to each unit as well? Also, would tankless water heaters or ones that heat the water right at the showerhead or sink be a possibility? Or does our recirculating system not allow for anything like that...
Kirsten #56
And one more question Todd: In the event that the board would decide to move forward with a large-scale plumbing overhaul and significant assessment to unit owners--would this kind of decision be made solely by the board members or would the decision have to be approved by a vote of the homeowners as well?
Reference the last two comments, you cab see why this issue is not going to be solved easily or quickly.
First of all, there is the question of whether Association provided hot water is an "amenity" or not. It's not specifically covered in the CCR's, so I suspect it's not, which means the Board could make a decision. Once the board (whoever is on it at the time) makes a decision to plow ahead with something this life changing, the smart play would be to get a formal legal opinion.
If something like this ever came to pass, all those other issues: underground or above ground water mains, location of the water heaters, gas or electric fueled, or whether the energy costs would continue to be paid by the Association or transferred to the individual owners. Obviously, one unit could not have a 30 gal gas fired water heater on the roof and their next door neighbor have a 40 gal electric in a closet inside the unit. The issues mentioned above are the tip of the iceberg, believe me.
The one thing I'm glad to see is that others are beginning to see the light on this issue. When I moved in here, over 70% of the units were owned by off-site owners who were only interested in collecting a rent check every month. They were not interested in taking on responsibility; eg, if your tenant calls in and says they have no hot water, it's much easier to and cheaper for a slumlord to call the management company than deal with it themselves. I now know of at least 6 or 7 people who would be agreeable to an assessment of this magnitude. When these problems first came up, I think I was the only one.
I remember when we had the new garage doors put on years ago. Everyone knew it had to be done, but when the board had decided on a design and a contractor, there was a wailing and knashing of teeth that was of biblical proportions (remember that, Howard). We actually had the contractor break through a few walls to get to reluctant owners to forcibly change their doors. If there was that kind of resistance to something that straightforward, I can't imagine what's going to happen if the Association plows ahead with a total plumbing overhaul.
Like I mentioned in the first comment, the best thing would be to find a competent plumbing contractor savvy enough to re-design the system without doing a major overhaul. Then, the Association could replace the mains under the buildings to stop the slab leaks and then we'd be OK for another 30 years.
Contrary to what the "current" boards seems to think, there was research and effort going in to solving this problem. Nancy's in a tough spot. When people complain, they tend to exaggerate, for example, so she's not getting a clear picture of what's really going on. I also volunteered to share what I know about the plumbing problem and system to any contractor who's interested in spite of the fact I'm not on the board anymore.
I know that doesn't answer all the questions, but I'm willing to give Nancy a chance to address these issues. Like I said, there's probably an easy solution to this situation that we are all missing. Perhaps we'll find it soon.
Todd in 122
Thanks for your input Todd. Obviously this is a multi-faceted, complicated issue...but I appreciate your willingness to provide the information and explanation so that as a homeowner I know what we're up against. Knowledge is power! :)
#56
Kristen:
As you probably know, there are electric point-of-use water heaters avaiable. It's expensive bcause they have to be "hard wired in" by an electrician and I only know of one unit which has them.
I considered them from time to time, but rejected it because I don't feel that it's a good idea to "opt out" of the plumbing system here, and the valves I had installed on my supply lines solved my individual problems 90% of the time.
In 2004/2005 when one of the other board members was actively soliciting bids and ideas from contractors, there was the spectre that one day, someone was going to come in here and say "all you have to do is turn this valve" and the problems would be over, and we would have spent hundreds of thousands of dolloars for nothing. That's why all of us from the previous board just bit our tongues at the meetings back then. I sincerely hope that the new people and manager can solve this problem. It might be tough if the president decides to take a couple of months off once in a while.
Anyway, It's good to see that at least a few other residents are becoming enthusiastic about this issue.
Todd in 122
Todd,
Has anyone ever investigated other condos or apartments in this area that may have a system similar to ours?
You mention that part of the problems started with a change in the city's water system. Did other condos start having the same problems we are having. Can the city be liable for any of the costs to retrofit or fix our systems because of their changes?
36
Ray:
I distinctly remember some board members coming to one of our meetings from another Association, asking if we had water problems also. So I suppose the answer is yes, there are (or were) other complexes with the same problwm.
The way the city handled the backflow preventer change was that we HAD to use one of their approved vendors, and that in the very last paragraph of theor letter, there was a statement to the effect that the change should have no effect on the quality of water service and that if it did, it was because our system was either inadequate or poorly designed and that it was our problem. So the City Fathers washed their hands of it from the get go. Just so you know, the reason for these things in the first place was to reduce energy consumption.
Todd in 122
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